Surviving PIPs and Securing New Roles: Technical Program Management Decoded

Speaker 1: 0:00

What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the textual talk where we talk about tech, career, business and much, much more. Today, we got a real treat for you. We're chatting with Terry Evans, a tech wizard and warrior in the corporate battlefield whose journey reads like an epic saga of twist turns and tech triumphs. Now Terry's got a story that I'll thank you, from the MySpace days of custom banners to the boardrooms of big guns and Department of Defense. She's a former political science student who caught the tech bug and switched gears to management information systems, and let me tell you, this powerhouse didn't just want to switch lanes. She built her own highway to success, but it hasn't been all power up mushrooms and victory desks for Terry. We're here about the low points too, like getting hit with a pip and being shown the door when she least suspected it. However, terry turned those punches into power moves, bound you back into the game without missing a beat. She's got some great a advice on what it really takes to stay afloat and flourish in the tech world. We'll jump into the nitty-gritty of what separates a project manager from a program manager, while it pays to know your tech stuff and how she managed to stay on top of the ladder despite some serious shake-ups. So whether you're a tech vet, someone looking to break into the field, or you're just here for the tales of corporate coast calls, you're in the right place. Stick with us to the end. Trust me, you want to hear the pro tips. Terry's got up her sleeve for staying relevant in this rapid fire room war. So follow the podcast, share it out and leave us a review if you enjoy this message today. Now on to the show. Yo, welcome back to the Tech Show Top Podcast. Well, I'm your host. Hd. This is episode. What is it? 117? Yeah, episode 117. And if you're watching with us right now on YouTube, you know what to do. Hit the subscribe button, hit like select all to be notified of all notifications and listening on podcast streaming networks everywhere. Leave us a review, follow the podcast, share it out to people that want to hear this information Today. Y'all in for a treat. People on Patreon have been watching like the whole version, where we really just been having a fun time laid back conversation. But today we are here with Miss Terry Evans and we're going to talk about technical program management and why people just excuse my knowledge of some I'm playing why people got her messed up. That's what we're going to talk about. So, terry, how you doing.

Speaker 2: 2:24

I'm good. How are you doing today?

Speaker 1: 2:25

I'm doing good. It's a little bad weather out here today. Well, it's gloomy, but this is really a lazy day. I think that's the reason why we took so long to start. I had to get our energy up. I had to. But how's your 2024 been so far?

Speaker 2: 2:37

It's been you know it's. It's been interesting. I would say that not the way I wanted it to start off, but I would say that it's going to progress this year. I have hope that it's going to be a good here, but the way that it started January was a trauma. So you know I have to try to figure it out. But February, looking a little bit more optimistic, got some things coming up, so I'm very optimistic for what this year is going to be.

Speaker 1: 3:08

Okay, cool, and for our listeners and guests that who don't know who you are, who are you? Or a little look, it's like an interview, so can you tell me about yourself?

Speaker 2: 3:16

Yeah, sure. So my name is Terry Evans. I am from Fayetteville, North Carolina Shout out to J Cole. I currently live in Dallas, Texas. I've been in the tech industry for about 12 years now. I got my bachelor's from North Carolina A&T State University and management information systems and I am currently a technical program manager at a tech company dope.

Speaker 1: 3:39

So we definitely got to get into a lot of stuff because we want to go into from a little bit, I guess from like high school going into college. Did you initially go major in MIS?

Speaker 2: 3:52

No, I didn't, I didn't. So I originally was a political science major going into college, so originally I always wanted to be a lawyer and that was just the interest that I always wanted to go into. But my tech interest it really started when I was like 13, based on my space. So on my space you know, if you were there during that time it was really website development and from there I really just wanted a cute layout on my space, like I would start it off. I wanted to just design banners and stone all that. And then I started to see, like other people, you know, take the comments off their page, take their profile page. I was like I want to do that. And so I was like okay. And I saw like in the back end there were some code there and I was like, okay, what does this mean? And I'm like I started to like play around with it. I was like, okay, this starts to, this is making a little bit more sense, like if I put this here. And then I really started getting deep into it and then I taught myself HTML and CSS and from there you would think you know you doing all that, you should go into tech. And my friends will be like, yeah, you're really good at this tech stuff, you should really get into it. I'm like, no, I'm trying to be a lawyer. Like I'm I'm trying to be the next Claire Huxble, but like I'm trying to be a lawyer. And so that was just the interest that I went into because really, just growing up, I never saw anyone in tech. The my perspective of what tech looked like was geek squad at Best Buy, and so I was like I don't want to work at Best Buy, so I don't want to go into tech. Because what looked like success to me in the black community was being a lawyer, being a doctor and so being those. I was like, yeah, I to be successful, I can't do this tech thing, this is just a hobby. So no, I don't want to do that. So I went off to college political science major and I want to say six to eight weeks into that major I had a intro to a polyside class and I was in that class and I was like this is not for me. I'm like I I don't have the the passion that a lot of people in this class have. Like we were coming to class and people would talk about we're going to start a protest and all these things, and I'm like I don't have any interest in that. Something happened with our transit system in the city that I went to college in and they were like, yeah, we're going to rally around them, start to protest, all that. And I'm like I don't have any interest in this, like I know I don't want to do this, so I'm going to just head on out. And what ended up happening for me? I went back to my dorm room and I started to like, think about what I could do in life. And I remember, back to orientation that I had during the summer, so freshman, during like freshman orientation when you go to college, you know you go to orientation. And I remember during that orientation there was a advisor who, you know, was just giving one of those typical motivational talks to the incoming freshmen, and during that she says like, hey, write down my number, take down my number. Everybody, get out your phone, write down your number. And she was like, if you need me for anything, just call me. And so this is now October. And so I'm like, okay, I remember that moment. And so I, you know, picked up my phone and I still had her number and I called her and I was like I don't know what I want to do. I'm a political science major, I don't want to do this anymore. But I don't know what I want to do. And she's like, all right, just calm down. She's like we can set up a meeting and we can, you know, have this conversation. So I met with her and I told her, like you know, I don't know what I want to do, I just don't want to be a political science major anymore. So she ended up, you know, letting me know she couldn't be the one that helps me. But she ended up referring me to the, our counseling service department on campus, and from there I met with the counselor. We did some assessments, did a little aptitude test, and we from the that test, tech and business were my top interests and you know. So we went and we she was like, hey, you know, business, tech, which one? And I was like, is there anything that merges the two? And so we looked at what the major catalog for ANT was and MIS was the top major for one that mixes IT and business. So that's how I ended up getting into it. So my freshman year I didn't come in starting it, but I ended up by the middle of my first semester changing to MIS Okay, this typical college freshman story.

Speaker 1: 8:16

Yeah, I had some questions that I had to let you get out. That was great, that was wonderful.

Speaker 2: 8:21

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:22

I want to ask you this to be a little funny, if we're going to go back to my space who used to have is like you had your top, like you had your top four, top five, we used to have on there.

Speaker 2: 8:32

You're going to give me a trouble now. No, like, so I really I took, because, remember, I webdesigned and at this point so I like took all of that out, like I didn't want nobody to know. So I had, like you know, my best friends, and then, like I had like, a little boo that was on there and, like you know, I grew up in the church, so like heavy in the church, so I'm, you know you had your little church boo, get your little school boo. So like those are the people that was on my top. But you know, they never got to see it because I was like I could see on that. And then one of the things I learned how to do with doing web designers I could like take somebody else's user ID, put it on there, look through people's comments that took it off their page. I could see all the stuff that people didn't see what was going on. And so I was like looking at stuff. I knew all the stuff that was going on that people didn't even know that they had on the page. I was like sitting up there like just being nosy.

Speaker 1: 9:22

Yeah, back then my friend did her. She was good at that, so like yo hey, do my page. And so that's when you get your stuff here and everything. So they used to be perfect. I know, back in the day I just started having like a long one, so people won't feel left out and then it used to be like, whoever I might have been talking to might have been one, two or three and remember one time I made the grave mistake of I was it was freshman year my picture was the girl that I was talking to at the time, her profile and the vice versa, and my older cousin like bro, what are you doing? I had never made that mistake after that, but now it's like a lot of the trial and error, but like it was. You know I loved getting you know. You come this a for y'all that are millennials who dealt with this, who were like in high school at the time or wherever time you use the myspace, you come home or maybe at cause, really back then. Iphone maybe just being hot, but it still wasn't how it is now, so you really have to get the full capability on the computer. So you go home, you log in. Oh, new messages, new likes, new photo comments, all this different thing, new friend requests. Like, oh yeah, I'm lit. Like that's the time, like my space was ahead of this time.

Speaker 2: 10:29

It was, and you know, I got to the point, even like how it's web design on my own. I had one of them pages that you went to and you that you went and go copy and paste and use one of those. Yeah, so I ended up creating one of those pages. I started to get paid. People wanted me to do banners for them, websites for them. I started doing them for my church and everything. So I was. I started like doing a little something thanks to myspace. I appreciate it, you know, for putting us on. I don't think there's nothing like that today where these kids can learn something a tech skill from that wouldn't recognize it. So I really definitely appreciate myspace for, you know, putting me on.

Speaker 1: 11:06

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Now I want to get into you, pivoting into MIS, and you say you took an aptitude test. Was that aptitude test, the plan test?

Speaker 2: 11:16

I'm not sure. Like you know, it's been like 14 years.

Speaker 1: 11:20

I just remember in high school we took like this plan test, or whatever it was called. It was supposed to show you what your interests are. I think my interest was pretty much similar, like working with your hands, doing something with technology or something else, and well, actually I think I'd be asked to test.

Speaker 2: 11:33

To be honest, you know, and that's why I really don't like those tests, because I am very analytical, so it's very easy to manipulate them tests that you can, you know, kind of calculate what they're actually looking for and what they're what the answer will be. So I remember taking a test like that in high school where it was like but I feel like I manipulated it to to say that I was going to be a lawyer because, I wanted to be a lawyer, so I'm like the questions you asked me about law. I'm going to make it the highest because I know that's going to tell me that I wanted to be a lawyer. But I think what the test that I took with the counselor's office, it was a little bit different because I couldn't do that, I couldn't manipulate it and I I didn't want to because I was like very passionate about what you want to do for the rest of your life, right. I'm like I need to know what I'm doing. So I was like, okay, let me not try to manipulate this to be the answers that I want, Let me just answer it the correct ways and let's just figure it out at the end. And so that's what led it to us. I don't know distinctly what that exact test was, because it's just been too long, but definitely, I definitely agree with you that you know the test.

Speaker 1: 12:36

So by that time you didn't want to be Molly for me as a cure anymore. No, that's it. I guess that's who the girls will look up to now, because they didn't watch. They didn't watch the Cosby's like a girlfriend, it's gotta be Molly.

Speaker 2: 12:47

Yes.

Speaker 1: 12:48

Yeah, okay, cool. So In school did you do any? I guess, like cause I assume that MIS and CIS are very similar. Besides, like I don't know what I mean, I know it's a long time ago what was that curriculum like for MIS?

Speaker 2: 13:10

So with MIS at ANT I don't know like if it's the same at other schools, but I would make the assumption it is MIS was a management degree with a concentration in IS, so the curriculum really followed business management. So a lot of my classes were accounting, stats, econ. That was the main portion of my curriculum was those classes. But one of the great things about being an MIS major my advisor she was over an organization called AITP, which is association of IT professionals, and with it being a club. In her being my advisor she will always advocate for joining that club and with it being an IT club, even though it was hosted in the business school, a lot of IT you know CIS, computer science majors will come join the club. So I had a lot of friends that would join the organization and through that, having those connections with them, like I had a friend. I really appreciate him. He was a little bit older than me. I definitely have to connect you with him because he's just really great in the way my journey has been in tech in general but being connected to him. He was a little bit older, he went to school previously, left, came back and he was a CIS major and with that. He was like you know, hey, you know you're not gonna get all the technical skills that you need being an MIS major. So he was like you know your electives, come take your electives over here. He's like take this mainframe class, take this networking class, so I would take on top of the business.

Speaker 1: 14:49

So you took R classes.

Speaker 2: 14:49

Yes, and then, of course, for MIS as well. Just outside of that, we had like object oriented programming. So you know, we learned SQL, we learned Python, we learned Java. So we had our programming classes.

Speaker 1: 15:03

So you learned some good stuff. Only programming language we learned was visual basic. Did you have to take supply chain management? I did, I did. So supply chain was probably one of the hardest classes I took.

Speaker 2: 15:14

Really.

Speaker 1: 15:15

It was interesting though.

Speaker 2: 15:16

I enjoyed it we had.

Speaker 1: 15:17

Look, the class was so hard and I want to say hopefully I can get Jessica on here, because I think I remember her dropping the class before we even took our first test and I think she was a doctor Dr Barrow said if you do what I tell you to do in this class, you're gonna pass, and I think I know coming out there would be. She used to tell us all the time hey, if you don't know the answer to a question on the test, it's Mark C, me and my friend Joey. We had stayed up to us and somebody as we studied the whole night and we got to the test like I still don't know, I'm Mark C. I look back at him. See, mark C too. I'm like man fool. That test was hard. I was like man who you tell I ain't know nothing, but I think we had to do some group projects or something like that. But that class was hard. One of the econ's was really hard too. I took three econ's.

Speaker 2: 16:06

Econ was my worst.

Speaker 1: 16:07

I did 101, 102 in monetary economics. I really liked monetary economics. It put me on game by money and my statistics class was hard, but not hard it just because the professor was not American.

Speaker 2: 16:20

Yeah, the accents fit will get you in a class you can pass and fail over accent.

Speaker 1: 16:24

He looks like if Dexter from Dexter's laboratory was a real person. That's how he looks, and so he was always like I love a mirror from there is X bar. He was like hmm. So he was trying to say, hmm, see we paying attention to whatever, but that class, I mean it was cool, but he didn't ever change the test. So everybody had the test. Like literally, he caught a dude with the test and he still didn't fail him. He's just like I had too much integrity. I wanted to learn how to do so. So I actually learned how to do this stuff and still messed up on the test because I was just writing the wrong sign at the end of my problem. I was working on everything. But that's why I was like dang, I know, I know this stuff. But I think that one and yeah, I think those might have been like the two hardest classes and, like you said, the CIS ones was database networking. I took one of my. I think that was like a forensic class. I had a system analysis and design class.

Speaker 2: 17:16

Am I missing one that I love? System is in and out. I honestly that's what I thought I was gonna go into. That's the pathway. I thought I was gonna be like a system analysis. Yeah, that's the way I thought I was gonna go, but of course life happens. But that or a database analyst like cause, I enjoyed going and that was funny.

Speaker 1: 17:36

We used to use MySQL and stuff like that. The funny thing is, though, now that I think about that system analysis and design capstone class I would say very much so would be like I would assume some of the stuff that you do now. A little bit, a little bit Cause we was using a Microsoft project To keep up with the tasks that everybody had to do in the group.

Speaker 2: 17:56

I would say and you know, I don't know how if your system analyst class was set up the same way, but the things that we did in that class for me it was more so like what I see a BA doing, so a business analyst were taking the requirements, building out with, or even a UX designer.

Speaker 1: 18:14

Those are. I think we did all of that Cause our, our, we just pretty much tested, like building out a solution, and our team built out a inventory system for, like, the bowling shoes at the intramural, and so we had designed a little thing and then, cause, pretty much it's cast on, so it's kind of took everything that we always did and of course they coded in a visual basic and presented it. I've got what I have been doing, I think. I think I might've just been like just there. Ready to go and past that and past that, I picked like some good group mates in there and we did get on ours. It was like one of them.

Speaker 2: 18:46

they say make sure you dress up for your presentation, and out of stuff I'm talking about, I was always like so with MIS, our major was small, like because, like I said it was, it was a concentration under management, so just those that were MIS majors, it was like seven of us that graduated and we were tight, like we did everything together, we studied together those last two years. We were just like connected. So we were always like just doing stuff, I think for our system in a list class that we each person had to do like a product, basically create a product, come up with the features and requirements, and so each individual person. So we didn't even get a chance to do a group project and do that. So I had we had to visually put it together. But even with that, with us being small like, we still connected, like, okay, your project is this, we gonna work on that, then we gonna work on this, and so I really appreciate it being such a small major. Yeah, definitely shout out to my people that I was working with.

Speaker 1: 19:41

So did you do any?

Speaker 2: 19:42

internships in college I did. I did so. I did two internships. If we wanna call the first one internship, it was with my school. So I was an IT intern for the career service office. The person that I mentioned about talking to doing the mainframes, classes and networking. He's the person that got me into that office and it was really just an IT internship by name. So we were supposed to be doing database analysis where we were taking the student data, their profiles, the things that. So I had access to people's GBAs and the classes they take. I was let me not say that, but I could have been going in and looking at people's transcripts and stuff like that and so we were like taking that information and seeing the companies that they connected to. And because we were basically that career service office was over anytime there was a career fair or anytime a company came onto campus, that was where we connected. So it was doing some data warehousing through doing that. So that was my first internship. I had that through my junior year to senior year, but during the summer of my junior incoming senior year I had a internship at this healthcare company called Cardinal Health in Columbus, ohio, cardinal. Yeah, so that was my first internship and I honestly I got that internship just by determination, because it got to my junior year and I didn't have an internship. And one of the things that they drilled at ANT is like you need to leave the school with an internship or a co-op, like it was like get one before you leave off this campus, like please get an internship. And so I got to my because I switched over my major my summer for my freshman year I was in summer school because I'm trying to catch the back up, Because poly-sci major is not the mass for business majors, so I had to like switch all of that. So my freshman and sophomore years were concentrated on trying to catch back up. So getting into my junior year I did not have an internship and I'm like, okay, I got to get on the ball and so I went to the career fair. I didn't get no internships from there.

Speaker 1: 21:51

Like.

Speaker 2: 21:51

I didn't get nothing. I ended up like I had an interview for USAA. They flew me out to San Antonio. I got an interview for CVS, but nothing was like happening.

Speaker 1: 22:02

And then she got interviews.

Speaker 2: 22:03

Thank you, but you know, from there I think you got to like December of my junior year so the end of freshman, I mean first semester, junior year and I'm like I don't have no internship and it's about to be the end for me. And so I went and I pulled the Fortune 500 lists of companies and I went down the entire 500 lists and applied to every single company that had an IT internship, and so I ended up doing that. And then I got Cardinal Health called me and I interviewed there and I ended up getting an internship for them.

Speaker 1: 22:35

Check you out, though, for being strategic. At least they drilled it into you. By the time I was like almost a senior. That's when I tried, but it was like I just had so much bad advice in school with relevant to like getting internships. That's what I tell everybody hey, time you step foot on campus, try to get an internship.

Speaker 2: 22:52

Yeah, and it's really that's why I appreciate the HBCU. I know people have their flak about the things that happen there. They don't have as much money or the facilities aren't up to date as the other PWIs, but really the advice that was given from the beginning that I got there was pivotal to my growth there. A lot of people, I think, just being in college, you're excited about being there and you may not you've tuned down those conversations, but that really perked my ear to be like hey, let me listen to the people that are here and they're really advocating for being a black professional in the work environment. So I really tapped in to listening to the advice that I got there and that really just helped me getting internships going and presenting certain type of ways. We had conferences on how to have conversations, how to etiquette, on how to talk at a table or a set or table, so I really appreciate all those things.

Speaker 1: 23:51

Yeah, that's pretty cool, because I had none of that and I went to a PWI.

Speaker 2: 23:55

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:56

But, to be fair, though, our school's more so known for engineering, engineering probably paid for most of everything. So if the engineers were getting internships, then architects and interior design people they're getting their internships. But our program was like a program like cause. Ces falls on the engineering, so, of course, but people was under the college of business, so they didn't really care about us, cause even at the career fair, they were rarely enough companies there for IT. As I went through school, it's back to like 2012, 2013,. They used to have more, but I was like doing interviews of stuff that didn't matter, like, I think, from Sherwin Williams, I was going to be like a manager or something Like all that stuff was not going to like help me out of my career. So, that's like the thing. Eventually, I don't know, maybe I may help them, maybe I may not try to help them. I was like, what are y'all doing?

Speaker 2: 24:48

here. I mean, it was the same at ANT, because ANT is the number one public HBCU for engineers, so a lot of the things are funded by the engineers and so with the business being like the second priority at ANT, so we got a lot of things for the business school because accounting is huge at ANT as well, so we had a lot of companies. That was like leveraging the engineering and business schools, so I was able to use that to get the access to that. But it's the same thing where it was like that funding was like engineers was like powering, Like you know, if you want to engineer, you know be an engineer major. If you want actual internships cause people will complain every time. When I actually did work in the career service office, it will be students that were seniors, you know. They were like art majors or fashion design or nursing, and they're like there's no internships for us and I don't, you know, there's nothing we can do and all those things. So it's like it's always people that are not those STEM majors that you know complain about they're not being good direction for them based on the school.

Speaker 1: 25:51

Yeah, and that's a. They have to take a different approach. They, if you're going to do a major that's like not a major like where you can kind of probably like go get a corporate job or something, you need to go, try to network and find people that do that type of stuff so they can plug you in. Hey well, you need a portfolio, you need to do this and you need to do that. Like this is what you need to do If not, you're just going to be in school being broke Right.

Speaker 3: 26:12

So yeah that's cool.

Speaker 1: 26:14

So did you get like a type of offer or anything from Cardinal Health or you just did the internship and then you got your first job out of college.

Speaker 2: 26:24

So I did. I did get an offer after. So I did my internship, did my presentation and then they extended offer to do a rotational program for three years after, after graduating. So I was said coming back senior year like I. I hosted during my senior year. I was like I'm all set, I got, I came out, so I think I made 60,000 coming out. So I was like I'm set, I'm making more than most people.

Speaker 1: 26:46

Oh, you was rich back then. This is what this is 2014. So yeah, you was rich because I wouldn't. I think at that time I was making real close to 40.

Speaker 2: 26:56

So I was like, yeah, you're rich yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:58

So what? What roles did you rotate in in that program?

Speaker 2: 27:01

So actually I didn't finish the program. So actually I got fired from my first job. That was my first job out of college and I got fired. So did you get fired on your day off? I did not, but for me, for that I got fired based off of corporate politics. I didn't get fired for not doing my work or anything, Just it was more so not knowing how to navigate through corporate America. That's really got what got me fired. So during my time there, you know, I moved, living in Greensboro, North Carolina, and I moved to Columbus, Ohio. I'm the only one there. You know I don't have any friends. I'm in a relationship. I was in a four year relationship during that time. So we are now long distance. I'm by myself, I'm out here and it's depressing and I had a friend who I. I ended up getting him a job at Cardinal Health with me, but he was, he was out in Chicago and I was. I was by myself and I was really depressed and that really took a toll on my mental health and I would show up during the bare minimum, Like you know, I would just do my job and go home and my manager didn't like that, especially being an African American, in that you know where you see other. If there's a black person there, they're excelling. And when you're not excelling, you stand out. When you have all these black people that are there with you and they're doing just going over the top and doing that, and when you're not doing that, you're looked upon and you're like, OK, what's what's wrong with you? You're not doing the best and from that, with my depression going on, I mean it just just started to dog. Yeah just take note on things that was going on. So this so you know, as the time was going on, I was there for about three months and then my manager we end up having a one on one and she calls me out and she says I want to put you on a pip. Oh yeah, that means I did right, which I didn't know at the time, right, and so she was like I'm putting on a pip. And then she names out the reasons why she wants to put me on a pip. And so, those being the first reason was was the first reason. The first reason was she went on a vacation, right? So she was gone PTO for a week and during that vacation I got sick one day. So it was like a Wednesday. I got sick and on our team it was just myself who was a full-time employee and we had another one of my co-workers was full time, so it was just three of us and my co-workers took all of my my bosses' responsibilities while she was gone. So I was sick one day and I said, hey, I'm not going to be in the office, and an email to her, and when my manager got back she was like nobody knew where you were at. You should have told another department, just you know. So she deemed that as an issue. A second reason was a part of the rotational program. We had a conference and at the conference the conference was from Monday to Thursday and I decided I wanted to be on Friday because I'm like I'm, you know, the conference is Monday to Thursday. I'm not coming to work on Friday. So I had let her know that. Hey, you know, for this I'm not going to be in the office on Friday. And mysteriously, she didn't know that I was not going to be there on Friday, so I was dinged for that Did you email her? Yeah, no, I didn't, I didn't and I didn't document this is a one-on-one, I didn't document it Right. So, um, you know. So she was like you never told me this. I, I didn't know, you were off office on Friday. Like I didn't know until I wrote you into all your um out of office uh email and you shouldn't have been out. So that was the second thing. The third thing was, um, she was like you know, the work starts at eight o'clock, so, eight o'clock, you don't need to be working, walking in the door at eight o'clock swiping your badge, you need to be at your desk. And so, um, she was like County, my commandment stuff.

Speaker 1: 30:46

Yeah, I hate that yeah.

Speaker 2: 30:48

So me, you know, not knowing all of this stuff, we're like, you know, the things that I just mentioned, I'd never, I'd never documented my one-on-ones. I didn't um, you know, just knew to to how to navigate through this. And so when she put me on the PIP, I'm I'm just thinking, okay, well, I'll just do, um, you know what it takes, what she's telling me, to get off the PIP. I'm just going to do it, cause I'm like I'm a good worker, I'll just do all the stuff that she's telling me to do and I'm going to get off the PIP. And cause, you know, my parent I told my parents was really the only people that I told that I was on it, because I was embarrassed. You know, we're, I'm in a three year rotational program and I'm going, I want to PIP, you know, months into this program. And so I told them and my parents are a military background and so for them, you know, when something happens, you get reprimanded in the military, you do what you're supposed to do, check it off, you move on. And so for them, they didn't, they didn't have the knowledge to tell me how do you you know finesse in your way navigate through, um, corporate politics, and so from there, um, you know, they was like, hey, just do what you need to do. You know, just tell, do everything she tells you to do. Um, I ended up doing that. Um, and then the beginning of Thanksgiving. You know, my PIP ended the week before Thanksgiving, right? So, you know, thanksgiving, you know I'm thinking we, we completed it. She was like, yeah, you did everything, we're done. I um go home for Thanksgiving and then I come back the following week, which is the first week of December, your best on work. No, last it was Monday, right, you know, I'm like, yeah, I'm, I'm doing well, thinking excited that meeting from HR get put on my that four o'clock meeting. And they're like, yeah, um, terry, you're going to have to this going to be your last day. Yeah, I'm like, you know I'm gonna be your last day. And I'm like, yeah, but I did everything that was on the PIP. And she was like, well, I just don't think you're a good fit. And I'm like, but I did everything that you told me to do. And she was like well, I just don't think you're a good fit. And I just packed up my stuff. I was devastated and I just cried, I cried, I called my dad. The next day he flew out of Ohio. We packed up my stuff, like the next day I was out of there I was back home. So yeah, I didn't last on that first shot.

Speaker 1: 32:58

I think and I'm glad this is a unique story For I'm going to especially say for black people and especially in the IT like Rotational Program well, I'm sorry, new Grad Rotational Program the company should have a setup to where they are aggraciation you into corporate, because what you may do in college does not align with there. You need to have maybe, maybe not weekly, but maybe every couple of weeks, a one on one just seeing, hey, how are you doing, what's going on, how are you feeling? You know how, how are things at home? How are you? I mean, it can seem intrusive sometimes, but when you can figure out about somebody, say, hey, they may be they moved away from here, they probably don't even have any family here. I can ask those questions or like, hey, well, you know, we have, you know, this group for, like you know, black people. You maybe join this to find some people, some friends and and maybe help with their process.

Speaker 2: 33:50

And you know I was a part of the ERG, so you know the employment research groups and I joined it during my internship and the people that I connected to, like for instance, I had a good friend, ashanta. She was in the program, she was like two years older, like, so she was the the in her third year. Um, when I joined the company, her last rotation was in Puerto Rico, so she wasn't even in the country to have those conversations and ultimately I was embarrassed because this is somebody who excelled at school. You know, like I mentioned about how you know term and I was to get an internship going down the Fortune 500. So, I was always like just finding ways to navigate and to do better. Like during college, I was president of the AITP. I was president of like I was doing all of these organizations and so I excelled, and coming into a place where I'm no longer excelling, it's embarrassing to kind of, and I had a lot of pride right. So I and I had I didn't want to let that pride go. I was like, okay, I'm going to keep this a secret, I ain't going to tell nobody, I'm on a pep and I'm just, I'm going to handle it and I'm going to, you know, go forward. And that, really, that pride, is what stifled me and what ended my career, because I honestly could have had those conversations with the, the advisors that were over the rotational program, and because I did have the conversation with them when I ever got on the pep. I did have a conversation with them and they were like, yeah, so what's going on? And stuff like that. And there was no way that I could prove the things that my manager were saying to me was incorrect because I had no documentation. So I'm speaking, you know, telling them, hey, this is not what's going on, all et cetera, et cetera, against someone who is has literally been, you know, building a case on me to say like, oh at at eight, oh seven. I pinged her and she didn't respond to me because she's walking in the door, you know. So she's taken all these you know notes on me, all these copious notes, and I have nothing and I'm trying to battle it with my, my mouth, and so that really is what? Something that I just didn't, did not know, and I really feel like that's something that takes a lot of people that are trying to you know, quote unquote break into tech. It's because they think that, hey, getting here is the final step and getting here is not the final step, it's the first step. And when you don't know how to navigate through you know, corporate politics and even just the job alone, you'll find yourself in places like that where you know even you're stagnant and you're going to stay at that same level and you're not going to find a ways to get promotions and move up and elevate in your career. And then you're also going to find ways where they're going to get you out, especially in this market Like this is not the market to, you know, be playing around, fortunately for me back then, 10 years ago, you know I, I ended up getting another job two months later, so you know. But nowadays you don't have that liberty. Where you can, you know you get into a nice job. You got to, you got to make it happen for yourself.

Speaker 1: 36:35

Yeah, definitely, definitely. And I'll just say this before we go to the next subject. It's like, hey, when you know they built in the case, just start looking.

Speaker 2: 36:43

Run, yeah, and and I had told my parents that I was like I think I should just go they was like, no, no, just just get it over. You know, just stay, and all that. And I'm like I don't think she's going to like the way that she was just moving with me, it was very like nice, nasty, and I was like I don't, I don't think she's going to give up on this. And it got to, I think two weeks before, and my parents was like, if you feel like she's going to fire you, just do it, Cause like you'll get unemployment. I'll say, well, that's true, so that ended up working in that way. If you want to get unemployment, you know you can let them go hit and fire you. But I would say, if the pip comes up just already, just immediately start looking for you should already, you should never stop applying for jobs.

Speaker 1: 37:22

But just always be looking.

Speaker 2: 37:25

But when there's a PIP in place, just you know, start moving even more expeditiously. Okay.

Speaker 1: 37:31

Now TI, listen, listen. So you got a job in two months. That's a fast time. Yeah, but then again it was a different time back there. I definitely do feel like it was a shortage of skillset back then, even more so. So what was that role that you got too much? So that was my first project management job.

Speaker 2: 37:51

So, and I really feel like that was like the grace of God, because the way that that job was like literally 20 minutes from my parents house, working with North of Grumman, which is, you know, the best of its contractor, yeah, so like you know, I was like. I'm not going to get a job. That was really God that worked out for me. That it was like, but it really was stood out for them for that job. It was a junior PM role. I had my, my BS and MIS, so that really already helped. I had internships. So already, even if you know I didn't get fired, I still my resume looked good, even if I I never told them that I was fired, because even that was the advice of my parents. So don't tell them you were fired. Don't say that. Why do they need to know that? You're looking for a job? You moved here, you relocated from Ohio to. My parents were living in Virginia at the time, so you relocated from Ohio to Virginia. That's what you need to tell them. Nothing more, nothing less. So you know. But what my resume looked like, you know it was enough that it was like okay, yeah, she got some skills. We want to give it to her because I still had all the other things my internships, my courses that I took in classes. So I looked like a good quality candidate.

Speaker 1: 39:04

So is that where? So was that first job? Was it a little bit more technical or or what? Because I know now, like you're specifically a technical program manager, and that's what we'll actually actually matter of fact. Let's talk about that now. What's the distinction between a regular program manager and a technical program manager?

Speaker 2: 39:23

Sure. So with a technical program manager and a regular program manager, the with the technical, obviously you have more technical knowledge, right? So there's more there. There's an expectation that you know what your engineers are talking about. What I've seen when things are called program manager and it really varies just across companies, because there are some just based off of what the company calls it and it really can't, doesn't have to be a difference and it can just be in the job description. But for program managers, program managers can be in any capacity, any industry, any sector, and I really feel like that is something that most people don't realize when they say, hey, I want to break into tech, what do you want to do? I want to be a PM, okay, why? What do you want to work on? Like what, what, what domains do you want to work on? Like there's so much that happens there with being a PM, like you can go be a PM in healthcare, like you don't have to. You don't have to be a PM for tech. That doesn't mean you're breaking into tech just because you want to be a project program manager and I do want to sell that. There is a difference between a project program and product manager, because a lot of these companies are starting to like convolute those roles together and people don't really understand the difference between the three of those. But so a project manager is one that just handles a project. So a project has a start and a finish, right. So you're managing time, scope and budget on that project. So I like to use analogies to help explain things. So we just listening to music. So let's say we have a record deal or record company, right, so Def Jam, right, and Def Jam has a new album coming out. Rihanna has an album coming out. Right, a project manager will manage that album coming out. So from start to finish getting the engineers to come and do the music, getting Rihanna to come, do the vocals, the marketing. You know all of that. They will make sure from the time that it says that, hey, they say April 2025, rihanna, please give us a new album. But you know, dream said it's done, right. When she came on the Super Bowl last year, I was like, yes, she's not giving us a new album, but you know? So, hey, april 2025, that's when the album needs to come out. So the project manager is handling everything that happens to meet that deadline, right. So let's say Def Jam says 2025, we want to have all the artists, all of our Def Jam artists, dominating their genre. So every single artist that we have, we want them to be dominating their genre, right? So all the program or, excuse me, all the projects that follow under that, what's dominate? So we want all our artists that are R&B to dominate the R&B charts. So that means projects that are associated with Rihanna, projects associated with Drake, usher, all of those projects. So Rihanna's album, drake's album, usher's album all of those are different projects, right, but they fall under a program. So that program manager handles getting to that strategic goal. So the strategic goal is for those artists to dominate their genre, right? So that is the strategic goal. So program managers manage projects associated with a strategic goal. So it's more at a strategic level You're looking at trying to meet the company's goal. So it's not just this one project like the project manager is just focusing on okay, I just need to make sure, by April 2025, that this project is done. But the program manager is saying, yes, I need that to meet the deadline, but I also need it to be meeting the company's goal, which is to dominate the charts, and so they're trying to make sure that that schedule falls in line with whatever initiatives to hit the timeline. So I hope that makes sense to you.

Speaker 1: 43:22

And trying to figure out how to dominate the charts and spend as less money as possible.

Speaker 2: 43:25

Exactly and to be more efficient with, you know, getting outspeed and everything like that scalability. And what about the product Product manager? Right? So a product manager is focused on the actual product. So let's say, they're over all albums coming out, right? So all albums, so everyone that has a CD at Def Jam, they're. They're specifically over those albums. So what they're looking at is like hey, what does an album look like? What is our market for this album? So they're going in there looking at who is the target audience? Who is this? How do we, how do we come out with this stuff Like, for instance, the analytics like what is the audience listen to?

Speaker 1: 44:07

What do they buy? Who do they like?

Speaker 3: 44:09

Yes.

Speaker 2: 44:10

Also, youtube tells me when I look at my analytics yeah, so with that like, for instance, like with the album for like Beyonce with Renaissance, the product manager will look like, will look at the audience and say, okay, what's the target audience? Our audience is on TikTok, our audience listens to social influencer, so let's send them a PR package. So they'll. The feature would be looking at a PR package and that's how they're, that's how they're, you know, increasing what that product is, the product is the album. So they're like Okay, yeah, let me. What are the features? Can do we get to improve into, increase the sales? That's so they're focused on the item, which is the product Got it.

Speaker 1: 44:49

That makes a lot of sense, because when you said that, I thought about Nicki Minaj going to a cost or not.

Speaker 2: 44:55

So trying to make appeals to that, that's my audience, so okay.

Speaker 1: 44:58

Yeah, cool. So that's North of Grumman. That would be the defense industry, correct, correct. So I know we can't talk about a lot of stuff there.

Speaker 2: 45:10

Well, you know, and with North of Grumman I didn't work on like the, the government side. So I worked on more of the state side. So the contract that I was under was working with the state agencies of Virginia, so we were contracted to handle the IT infrastructure for the state agency. So I don't really have you know some clearance. I can talk about the things where that I work on so do you have a clearance, I do not. And I'm so upset because I got laid off from North of Grumman from so I didn't get a chance to get my security clearance. I was on the list to get my secret clearance and we got laid off. So North of Grumman ended up cutting our contract. We they had a five year contract with the state agencies, with the state of Virginia, and they were not performing well. We were not, of course, and you know, and it wasn't really that we weren't performing well. They just, you know, felt like another company could do it at a cheaper cost. So they ended up canceling the contract earlier, fortunately for me. I had already felt like it was time for me to start going somewhere.

Speaker 1: 46:14

How long were you there?

Speaker 2: 46:15

I was there for three years.

Speaker 1: 46:16

Okay, so now that took us from.

Speaker 2: 46:18

we was in we graduated in 2014. So now it's 2017. Yes, 2018. So I graduated in 2014. I started at North of Grumman 2015 because, remember, I got fired from my last year, and that's why you said Thanksgiving.

Speaker 1: 46:31

So, yes, it should be a new year, two months, you're right.

Speaker 2: 46:33

Okay, yeah, so I started March 2025, I mean 2025, 2015.

Speaker 1: 46:38

Okay, cool, and so you got laid off. What part in 2018?

Speaker 2: 46:43

So we got laid off August of 2018.

Speaker 1: 46:47

Okay. So I see you got laid off about like six months later than I did. I got laid off and like, really, I was told I was going to be laid off in January of 2018. But they said it's going to start in May. I mean, I'm sorry, it's going to start in February. So it started in February. So at that time I'm in grad school and it was like, oh, we just would pay off whatever bonus at 100%. You'll get like an extra check and all that stuff. I should have negotiated my severance, but that's what earlier we were talking about, like different songs at different times. Around that time it took me a while to find another security job back then. I don't know, like, when it comes to layoffs, like I have clients I work with have been laid off. It's like it kind of just goes through waves to where, like you're maybe just doing interviews and stuff like that, but eventually it gets to the point where now the offer start coming in Cause, like I have a client recently who he's his contract came to an end last year and then so we were always interviewing towards last year and beginning of this year, but then all the offer started coming and he got his big one. What was it like two weeks ago when we finally got the news that he's supposed to start next week? But that's typically how it is in the layoffs. So I was like sometimes you got a weather to storm and it sucks at that time and have a family with just me. So it's much easier and I would say, like right now, like if you are somebody in tech or in corporate, just say for a layoff day instead of writing a day, just say for a layoff. You just never know. Now, the hard part is, like most of us, you may not be seeing most of your money because you may be helping family. This is that you, the person in the family that made it. But if you can possibly save some money for that, do that. Cause it started getting towards the end where I made some tough decisions I am my pay rent or my pay, my car note. I'd start making tough decisions but by the time I got, I started my job back in June of 2018. I just, of course, I was making. I got a raise more than I was making at McAfee. I just had to catch back up and, because it was just me, I was like cool, but that's the things. Like some of the stuff like we don't hear people talking about online. It's like, hey, most of the time you will get laid off, it's just. It's just like if you don't, you know you're a lucky person, but most people end up getting laid off, no matter. Like you said no from Grumman Cause people. Well, you said you're on the state side, I know, even though government countries like unless you just messing up, like you should be good with the contract, right.

Speaker 2: 49:09

You definitely not getting fired from uh gov tech If you, you know, hopefully especially with them, clearances. It's a beautiful thing to have.

Speaker 1: 49:17

Well, with around the time, you was working at North of Grumman for, like, I started my career in 2014. At first, I was a contractor for Apex and we were working for, at the time, cse, which is now GDIT.

Speaker 2: 49:33

Yeah, and we that's who went for North Korea.

Speaker 1: 49:37

That's funny. But see, we had the TSA help this contract for years but then by the time I left I think they left, they lost it. They start losing all that good talent. You ain't gonna keep that contract if we going on top of maybe whatever else was going on because they was getting over on the money.

Speaker 2: 49:51

On my end.

Speaker 1: 49:52

I had to leave. I had to leave.

Speaker 2: 49:54

And that's why, when you talked about with layoffs, that's why it's important to keep applying, always even if you're in feel like you're in a secure job. Because for me, my layoff situation was a little bit different because we found out, like I said, within the contract that we were in with the state it was a five year. We was in the fourth year and you know, we found out in March that they or March or May that they were ending the contract and I had already been applying for jobs and I was interviewing for the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond and so when they did the layoffs, I had got to the final round of that interview. So by June I had already secured the job at the Federal Reserve.

Speaker 1: 50:40

So with Okay, Ms.

Speaker 2: 50:40

Keeper Bay, something like that, but you know. But going through the Federal Reserve, I don't have a security clearance but I had to go through a public trust clearance and going through all of that even though a public trust is not a full clearance but it takes a lot. It takes weeks to get that told, yeah, but it took so much I had to get fingerprinted. Like, just working for the Federal Reserve is a lot to get into, like it was a great place to work. It's not, you know, full gov tech. But you know we do a lot of contracting and vendering with IRS and Treasury. So there was a lot of. There was a lot of like monitoring or background checks. Yeah, it's a lot of cross-cross stuff, and then even like my friends, like they had to put out like people that I work with, like two people that know me personally, two people from each of my jobs, my friends were like. They were like, yeah, they were asking, like-.

Speaker 1: 51:38

So you had to like do like what's it called an equip. Yeah, yeah, I had to do equip, Like my clearance actually is about to probably like go away some, cause I haven't used it in years.

Speaker 2: 51:48

Yeah, I'm so upset like that. And cause I was on the list because we are, you know, being at Northrop Grumman, we already knew that this was, you know the contract was going, so they were already preparing us to. You know, hey, what's going to be your next place? Do you want to go in Northrop Grumman? And I was in Richmond, virginia, and you know headquarters for Northrop Grumman. One of the headquarters is in a false church, virginia so DMV area, so that's about two hours from Richmond. And so they were like, hey, there's some stuff up there and if you, you can get a sponsor to get start your security clearance. So I was on the list to get my security clearance but we got laid off so I didn't get to fully go with that, but back to just with the layoff situation. So my start date for the Federal Reserve was the week we got laid off. So I got my severance. I went up there for like when you know, one day, sign the paper. I didn't even try to like negotiate or anything, I was just like, whatever, I already got another job. So I was like I went up there for one day sign severance and, you know, got my paycheck for my new job. So that's why it's important to just constantly and I'm pretty sure everyone knows that now, because everyone is such in a panic with the job market is going it's, it's crazy Like this is the worst job market I've never struggled to like find, you know, consistent roles that are reaching our companies, reaching out to me. It's been a struggle all around.

Speaker 1: 53:09

Yeah, We'll definitely get into some of that and I was going to touch on you. Your stuff about the Federal Reserve Bank remind me of freaking working for Goldman Sachs. Background checkers like felt like a security clearance.

Speaker 2: 53:21

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 53:21

Like everything right, all this stuff down, this down, and. But then them, this is like sugar in the government, they all in your biz. Oh, you can't buy this stock or you can't do this or that. Disclose. I'm going to tell you something. Hey, if a job is actually disclosed outside stuff, don't Just if they find out, they find out, just let them find out, and then you could probably quit. By then they're going to try to make you stop. It's going to become an issue. So don't disclose it Like I never told them oh, I got this business and I do this or that, because some type of way they'll try to make me career coaching and content creating all this stuff.

Speaker 2: 53:55

It's complicated and it's not.

Speaker 1: 53:57

So I'm like no.

Speaker 2: 53:58

Yeah, I worked at Bank of America last year and it was the same thing. They were like you have to disclose all this and I'm like I don't plan on being here for long, but I was like I wish, I would disclose the stuff.

Speaker 1: 54:07

Like the only, I think, they end up finding out. I had a fidelity count but I wouldn't really actively try them. But some stuff I did want to buy, sometimes on a whim, and I had to put the request in. But I think I used to ping the person like yo, I need this approved. But, so not. The Grumman is pretty much what you got into the infrastructure side. So is there a specific infrastructure that is your niche, that you come into companies and work with?

Speaker 2: 54:30

Yeah. So a lot of the, a lot of the projects that I work on is associated with buildouts. So whether a company is building out a new facility, new data center, which is becoming a huge thing, that's really like yeah, because CUM is going back on prem, oh yeah, oh yeah. And even just like with cloud computing and AI is, in general, like that has to be that data has to be hosted somewhere, and so there's. You know the need for data centers everywhere when I say there's just so many data centers that even just here in Dallas there's so many data centers being built out, like Google, like Amazon.

Speaker 1: 55:08

I see them all the time like in service. Now how you just the data center in?

Speaker 2: 55:11

Dallas and I work at one of the. It's a smaller tech company but it is a prime data center provider and businesses starting to boom for my company. So you know the data center buildouts are really what I my primary baby is. But networking is another thing that I just always. Networking in firewall is just where you know I always landed in projects and I really just, you know, grabbed onto it, learned the technology and spend just going through it.

Speaker 1: 55:41

Cool, before I ask you specifics about the networks and firewalls that you probably help build out and implement. Yeah, let's give them this what's a typical day like for you being a technical program manager that specializes in networks and data centers and everything else infrastructure related.

Speaker 2: 56:02

So a lot of meetings, a lot, a lot of meetings, depending on the project. A lot of times, whether or not there are clear requirements for what is talked about, usually it is defining what we're actually working for. A lot of times companies say, hey, I want something done, but they have no clue what they need. They don't have anything and usually, depending on how mature a company is, they may have business analysts to help with that front end project to figure out what the requirements is. But a lot of times the budget is in there for that. So that usually the PM does that meeting with sponsors, meeting with your stakeholders, trying to figure out exactly what their pinpoint, exactly what they're looking for and what they're trying to do. So, hey, what are the dates that you're looking to, what are what's in scope, what are the resources that we're going to need. So that usually starts off. The beginning of the project is trying to pinpoint exactly what we're needing to do, and so, even if we're farther into the project and we're now building out what that looks like, what is different from a normal PM is whenever there are different tech documents that come out. Hey, this is the type of fiber that we need or this is the type of cables and I kind of couldn't know. Based on just the knowledge of what I've been, I can kind of have those conversations with my engineers to say, hey, this is level one, this is, you know, I can have those conversations based on you know, not based off of what a typical program manager sometimes I don't know and you know I'm faked to make it right, and but there's some things that I can pick up on, on where it's like, hey, we're about to cable in a 48 port switch, maybe that we need a 120. And where have? I can have those conversations based off of just the requirements. So I don't have to lean on my engineers to ask a lot of dumb questions, because I know a lot of engineers yeah, I hate when we come and we ask a lot of like dumb questions. So I can kind of be that filler to not have to have to go to them to say, hey, what's this technical question? But, like I mentioned about program management, it's about being strategic and you know, every company has something that is trying to do for a project. A project is done for a reason. It's never done because you know, hey, we just didn't want to do this. It's always something. Are we saving money? Is it going to make you?

Speaker 1: 58:25

know time faster you know all those things.

Speaker 2: 58:27

It's all about doing those things. So when you don't have a person that has to rely on, hey, let me go ask this person, let me come back to you and they can. You know, they have the knowledge themselves to be able to have those conversations, it helps, and that's what being a TPM helps with. Or even, like I just mentioned, where maybe we're building out, we're doing some refreshes, I do a lot of like end of hardware, end of life projects. That's really a big bulk of being an infrastructure PM is that end of life migrations, all of those things. So when we start to have those conversations and it's hey, we want this, you know this server is coming to the end of life, do we want to put it in the cloud? We want to keep it on prem? You know, hey, there's another server that's similar. Do we want to migrate all that data together and just have one big server? So, like having those conversations, I can start to ask the right questions with my engineers and so, yeah, that's what helps me with being a TPM.

Speaker 1: 59:22

So are there any type of applications or software steps you use on a day to day that makes your job easier, or you would call them essential?

Speaker 2: 59:30

So right now and this is something that I hate it, but it's something I have to use because it's just the protocol in my company I use Jira, so Jira is what we usually use in a agile methodology. So the two prime methodologies in project management for managing a project is waterfall and agile. And so the difference of waterfall and agile waterfall is from start to finish. If I was to build you a car and you say, hey, I want a car, this is what I want the car to look like, you give me the order and I make it. And then I can't do over a car, right, and with agile, agile is taking every single part of the car and breaking it down. So it is hey, I want a car. Okay, what do you want the steering wheel to look like? Okay, I want the steering wheel to have leather and red trim, all right. And then we're going to go do a sprint for two weeks and we're going to work on it, and then I'm going to give it back to you and say, is this what you want? Okay, yeah, all right. So that goes. And then we take something else that's out, you know, in the backlog and we say what's another feature that you want. Okay, car paint, do you want? Blue Do you want? And then so there's a two week. You know the sprints that you do with that. So agile is doing the iterations, the you know going step by step and you know you're going through that and you know working with a customer to get a project done with waterfalls. You give me the order and I give it back to you, which you give me. And so in infrastructure, because of the nature of infrastructure, servers, networking, you can't. There's no agile in that right, you can't, I can't make give you a server and be like okay, do you want these cables here or do you? You know you can't do that. So most of my projects are waterfall. But companies are so focused on being agile I have to use agile functionalities in domain. So I use Jira to do waterfall projects, which is very irritating because I'm not running sprints. So so Jira is one of the main ones that I use. My company previous companies that we use Microsoft project, which was big and huge, but my company we don't have a specific project scheduler that we use. So I use smartsheets, excel as basic as Excel is, it is a lifesaver really for pinpointing those things and breaking down the different tasks that are associated with each of the project and then just really leveraging that. I like to go real old school and use pen and paper so to really task out things. It really helps, if you remember. Yeah, it really does. And it helps to just get things and navigate things and like a whiteboard. So those are really the main things. Jira smartsheets, those are really the prime ones that I use. Even I've worked in companies that use ServiceNow, which I hate, to use ServiceNow as a project management platform. But yeah, funny enough that you said something about two week sprints.

Speaker 1: 1:02:30

When I was at JP Morgan, my role was like I pretty much was kind of tasked of being like a product manager of this product that they wanted to push out within my team. And then I also did a lot of assurance type of work. We worked on firewall rule violations for the different lines of business in the company and we're trying to see like why are you violating or why that's not fixed? Anyway, the whole year I was doing the sprints, but before that I used Jira, but it wasn't an agile way. I come from security, third ops incident response, so if I was assigned something I'm like oh hey, we put this detection in Jira, we want you to go check it out and put your comments down and close it out. That's how I used to be. When they put me, I was in Jira doing all these things. I'm just moving them from every week to week.

Speaker 2: 1:03:22

He was like yeah, he was like nah, you got to close these out and then start some new ones.

Speaker 1: 1:03:26

So it's a new two week sprints. I was like, yeah, I wish you would have told me that, because I just been doing it the wrong time. Cause he was like, yeah, you gotta do all these that way. So now, when it comes to review time, you say, hey, I did all these different sprints, all these projects I created. This is what I did, this is what I contributed. I was like, well, y'all didn't explain that. Y'all know my background is different. I bought a whole different mindset to it, but it definitely was not a good fit. So I could, I could see that. So, like when I, I was only there six months. Then, when I left my manager's like you know, I'm not surprised Cause within like two or three days, I was like I don't know if this for me, like how long gotta stay in this role? Cause I was going to try to move around internally. But you know, hr, hey, you got stated for about you know a year. I was like, no way, jose, I ain't doing that. But something I was thinking about the whole time where you was talking, where the scrum fit in, which are jobs, cause I'm very confused at what is a. What do they even do?

Speaker 2: 1:04:21

I am laughing because I have a PM group chat and I literally just a couple of days ago, someone was like how's all the scrum masters do it? Because it is something that I feel like in the industry is coming on Well, like you don't see too many jobs hiring for scrum masters and so scrum masters fall under agile. So it's a job where when you're running the sprints, that is the person that is. You know every day you're ha during sprints, you'll have your daily stand up.

Speaker 1: 1:04:52

You gotta stand up right there.

Speaker 2: 1:04:54

Yeah, I'm, I'm glad I don't do a lot of agile projects. But during those daily sprints you have someone that is there. That's kind of like the person that's you're telling what obstacles you're facing and they're they're working to get whatever obstacles you're facing within those sprints and you know, piling through that. So that usually is what happens with the scrum master, but it's, it's a job that I'm feeling. It's fading away. Yeah, but just based off of the strategic nature of jobs, where they're looking to save and cut costs, they're like oh, the product owner can do that, or the project manager can do that, I don't need a another person that can do that.

Speaker 1: 1:05:34

I mean for me even in, like my own business, I use auto AI when I'm doing consultations. So others, all the highlights, all the links I sent all that and it's sending it to them after the meeting.

Speaker 2: 1:05:44

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:05:46

That's cheap.

Speaker 2: 1:05:47

Yeah, I, I appreciate it, like zoom has the new AI company. Oh, they do, yeah, and I love it.

Speaker 1: 1:05:53

I use Google meet cause I was like, why am I paying for zoom Like he's Google meet for me?

Speaker 2: 1:05:55

Well, like during my company, we have it so like AI company I like, because a lot of my job is, you know, with meetings and it takes so much to be a note taker. And I feel like as a project manager, we kind of get a bad rep that by thinking that we're just, you know, glorified note takers and we're not, because a lot of it is managing people. And so with AI cause I hear a lot like oh, are you scared that you know AI is going to take over project management? Absolutely not, and it is a job that it's about managing people.

Speaker 1: 1:06:26

And they are, can't interact with people Exactly, and see, here's the thing too, but a lot of companies it's so much red tape, depending on what industry in they are not going to use.

Speaker 3: 1:06:36

AI.

Speaker 1: 1:06:37

Because they just from you know a legal standpoint they just can't because they don't know who has access to the data once it's gone. So like that's a crazy thing, like in finance, like you can't even use, like I'm like bro. Some of these means could have been emails. Hey, let's use loom or some pre-recorded video. Send it out to us. Why am I on here talking to y'all?

Speaker 2: 1:06:57

Yeah, that's one thing I don't miss like being in the finance industry, especially like classifying different emails that was sending out. And just at the Federal Reserve it was such like you said. It was red tape about everything that you send out. You accidentally put a USB to the computer that you're being drilled down and what did you connect to it in? You know so like I.

Speaker 1: 1:07:20

like that, though, make my job easy, because if you not, people could put anything in the computer like first it was a first public bank. You know how that went down. But I want to get on to this real quick Cause. So when did you move out here and why Dallas?

Speaker 2: 1:07:35

I moved out here in 2021. And I didn't move out here for a job or anything like that. No relationship either. I had just been living in Virginia for, you know, five years at that point. You know, like I mentioned, I got fired from a job when I moved back with my parents and I would have been staying with my parents for a while and I was just like I'm ready for some change. My parents are military, so we moved. Like you know, my entire life I've moved three years, you know. At max when I got to high school and stuff, we stayed in Fayetteville so that's why I call that home but for the most part we moved around. So like when it gets about three years or so, I'm like okay, it's kind of time to pack up it goes where. And so I was like on five years of living in Richmond and I was like I just I want to do something different. I want to go. Yeah, and originally I was going to move to Raleigh, north Carolina, because Raleigh has RTP, which is the research triangle park there, and it has tons of companies like Cisco is there Just a whole bunch of companies just right there in Raleigh. So I was thinking about moving to Raleigh but I was like I wouldn't. Like Greensboro is probably like a good hour from Raleigh. So a whole bunch of people that went to ANC went to Raleigh or in the. I was like Charlotte, I don't want to move to Charlotte. Atlanta was a absolute. No, I definitely did not want to move to Atlanta. I'm like Atlanta is a good time to visit. Is you know there for a good time, not a long time.

Speaker 1: 1:09:03

What about Houston?

Speaker 2: 1:09:04

So that was another thing. So so I'm exed out of Atlanta. Dc was another one. I was like no because I was it's keeping up with the Joneses in DC and I was like I heard this very like a lead is like oh, what do you do? Yes, who you work for, and it very much so. And then also I hated the traffic in DC Every time I would go to DC, cause Richmond is only two hours from DC, so I was like I hated the traffic and it got more snow than Richmond. So I was like I didn't want to be stuck in the snow and so I was like Texas sounds nice. I was like Texas sounds real nice and I was like Dallas. Dallas sounds like somewhere I could live. And I was like but Houston also sounds like somewhere I can live and I was like Houston's a little bit fast. I don't know if I could handle Houston and I was like nah.

Speaker 1: 1:09:48

I think Houston actually slower.

Speaker 2: 1:09:49

I was thinking that it was fast Cause. I was like I, when I think of Houston, I think of it's like a baby Elena. So I was like I was like maybe, maybe Houston. So like I started applying for jobs in Houston, like nothing was open, like no doors was opening, I was like okay, and it just didn't feel right. I was like I don't know something about Houston doesn't feel right. And then I was like, okay, what about Dallas? And Dallas just felt right. And so my mom's family, my mom's from LA, but my grandparents ended up moving to Oklahoma in the 90s. So like I would go spend my summers in Oklahoma. So you know Oklahoma is three hours from Dallas. So like I was like, okay, close to my grandma, close to you know, my mom's side of the family, I'm like Dallas sounds really nice and I started applying to jobs with Dallas. I got a job here and I just moved like, packed up my car and in drove to Dallas. So that's why I moved here.

Speaker 1: 1:10:39

Okay, check you out, and so that was what I'm going on three years now. So was did you move here for Bank of America?

Speaker 2: 1:10:48

No, so I moved here for another company. It's called. It's a healthcare company. It's called.

Speaker 1: 1:10:55

Genesis care. I think I heard them before. I've seen them on indeed.

Speaker 2: 1:10:57

Yeah, they're oncology, so they're a network of cancer cancer doctor, patient I'm saying patients oncology clinic. So that's what I ended up moving here for it Cause they originally I was remote when I started that position and then they had they had thought about moving, putting a headquarters in Dallas. So I believe like 2023, they were anticipating after COVID to build out a headquarters here. So I was like, okay, I'm already going to move to Dallas, so that's going to work out, but I was remote for that job, so that's why I originally got the job and moved out here.

Speaker 1: 1:11:40

So you stay there, then you go to. So when you got here did you just figure like it went right. So you just found a company.

Speaker 2: 1:11:47

That's a right fit yeah, I just went for and then from me going from the Federal Reserve, cause ultimately I could have just went to the Federal Reserve of Dallas.

Speaker 1: 1:11:57

But my friend used to work here.

Speaker 2: 1:11:58

Yeah, cause I cause, even though I worked at the Federal Reserve of Richmond, I wasn't technically in the Federal Reserve of Richmond. So there's the banks, so you have Federal Reserve Dallas, federal Reserve of New York, but there's another organization called Federal Reserve of IT, so it's called Fritt, and so that's what I was more so in, but it was under the Federal Reserve of Richmond and so from there so I could have just you know, went to the Federal Reserve of Dallas, but I wanted to pay jump, like I jumped from. I had a $20,000, no 30,000 increase from where I was at the Federal Reserve to my new job at Genesis care and I was.

Speaker 1: 1:12:38

like you know, we're in a time of salary transparency.

Speaker 2: 1:12:43

So I hit my that's when I hit six figures was going from. So at Federal Reserve I was at was it 65, 70? I don't know. I ended at 70, 75, something around. I was at 70. So it was at 70. And then when I started out, 105 was what I started at being at Genesis care.

Speaker 1: 1:13:05

Nice, nice, look realistic stories people.

Speaker 2: 1:13:08

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:13:09

Realistic stories.

Speaker 2: 1:13:11

And I was at that point. So now you know I started at and how. I said I my first job. I started at 60 K but when I got fired, you know I was willing to take anything because I was embarrassed, I was, I needed a job and I went down to 50. So you know. I took a cut just you know, cause I needed the job and so I went from 50 at Northrop Grumman which Northrop Grumman I had, I felt like the defense industry and pay there they really don't want to pay and that was one of the most jobs I had, the most work, like it was so much work and I'm like for what y'all are paying, for what I know now I'm like for what y'all are paying, it's ridiculous.

Speaker 1: 1:13:54

Yeah, my friend works at LHM and drives to Fort Worth every day and they don't want to pay and he's getting underpaid cause he like do the job of like a team of like four or five would do.

Speaker 2: 1:14:06

Yeah, yeah, I had somebody they I know somebody that just got an offer for Lockheed and for what he was going for. He said the offer and I was like I'm not surprised, cause I'm like Northrop Grumman is their competitor and they don't want to pay. So I'm like I'm not surprised. They don't want to pay you because they don't pay in the defense industry. So like I love Simone B's content because I didn't even know, like I kind of X'd out going to GovTech because I was like I know what Northrop Grumman's paying. I'm like there's no way you're getting paid this way. So I love her content, that she gives an insight and how to navigate through that.

Speaker 1: 1:14:43

Hopefully she stopped through. She's supposed to be in Dallas sometimes.

Speaker 2: 1:14:46

Awesome dope.

Speaker 1: 1:14:47

Who knows? Who knows what we got cooking up?

Speaker 2: 1:14:49

Yeah, that's awesome, yeah. So with that, just you know, I ended up dropping salaries to, you know, get another job. And I think you know people are so much on this chase to get six figures that they don't realize, hey, maybe I need to take something a little bit smaller. It may start off at 60, start off at 70. And you know, and make your way up. I didn't start at 100K, I didn't come into this. It took me years, you know. I was basically seven years into this before I reached six figures. So Same.

Speaker 1: 1:15:20

I think I really started consistently hitting it in about 2019. Yeah, about 2019 to 2020. So really pandemic time, but no, I've done it. I've taken the handsome haircut to go into a role that I like. I love JP Morgan to other place.

Speaker 2: 1:15:38

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:15:39

So I definitely understand that. I was strategic about that. Don't waste a hell. I got my compensation to be what I needed to be, as well as other things I do to offset whatever I need to pay for. So a lot of people probably aren't doing that, but I always say, like, if you don't have no kids or nothing, I like I'll tell my clients all the time if the offer can pay your bills and you need the experience, take the offer. It's okay. You ain't only keep up with yourself, like I ain't worried about keeping up with nobody. I'm not a flashy individual. Nobody knows me. For that type of content I have you, like if you got to just have a job to just take some money, it's better than zero, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:16:18

Yeah, and definitely. In this market you definitely want to have the skills to set you apart and if going to a job that pays a little less but gives you the experience you need, that that's more valuable, because that's the essential part. And I think a lot of people, especially because of social media, are chasing money and not realizing that that's no longer gonna set fit in where the market is. This is an employer market and you have to do what it takes to stand out.

Speaker 1: 1:16:50

Exactly. Let me see if I can find it, cause my girl, I don't know if you're familiar with Shatoru meal or something like that I think that I'm not sure. Thank you, I cannot find her. She's always putting people on game.

Speaker 2: 1:17:07

Is she like light skinned Yep? I have literally just seen one of her videos yesterday.

Speaker 1: 1:17:14

Okay, look, here she go. This is a good one. Let's listen to this.

Speaker 3: 1:17:17

This job market is tearing a lot of people up and it's because of decisions they made. So I'm going to explain. Let's talk about it. One of the biggest things that happened was we all understood that for some reason, people who were willing to leave their employers and go after new opportunities were more likely to increase their income. When we look at their income, it will always outperform those who stated a company for a long period of time. But one of the things that people did not understand when you move and you job hop and you're moving laterally, chances are the skills that you're getting are the same ones that you've had. But it's not until you have a strategy. You say, when I job hop, I job hop for money and a new set of skills that would give me a return on my investment once I stay at this company and when it's time to leave, I know exactly what my skill set will be worth. So a lot of people are in this job market right now. The problem is you want a certain amount of pay and now these companies are literally saying we couldn't miss pay in half, but the thing you never invested in was a high-paying skill set. That was your mistaken job hopping Now more strategically this job.

Speaker 2: 1:18:32

That's definitely facts. Yeah, I started following her yesterday. I seen another video she did. I think probably it was a response to that video. And I immediately followed her great content. I definitely want to connect with her. I got you, yeah, I definitely enjoyed what she was speaking and I definitely agree. And I think, even from that perspective, even with this over-employment thing that everyone has been talking about, even with that, I think people need to understand in that component, that's still a lateral move, because you cannot exceed and do greatness when you're over-employed. I got a theory but I will not.

Speaker 1: 1:19:13

I will tell you offline. But you're right and I made a video a couple of like a month ago and it was titled. The Thumbnail Said Don't Job Pop Just, and I was talking about the same thing how your job happened to the same job you getting paid more but your skills are not increasing Whereas that person and I was talking about myself where the job that I landed after I laid off I stayed there almost four years but I had got so many different skills, from technical skills, from being a regular sock analyst, level two, to a sock lead, so management type of leadership skills to where, when I left to go to Goldman Sachs, I had all these different skills to where my pay went like this. So now, every other time I got all these things I've shown improved. I can do that. Some people are just putting their head down okay, I'm gonna go here, so they have no real things they accomplished or anything when I do their resumes or just talking to them and they're trying to get certain pay and I was like it's not there. I'm talking to one of my other friends. All of us have been like a lot of my contemporaries. Most of us have been in a decade plus or some eight years, whatever. And we're telling people hey, a lot of y'all who are trying to be remote, it's actually kind of reserved now for people who got high skills as now?

Speaker 2: 1:20:28

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 1:20:29

Or like, of course, sometimes some of it is industry based where, hey, they want to be hot rip. But for most part you're not gonna see that because that's what me and my friends talk about when they're working like he. He was like man, how you been working remote for what I was like. I've been here long enough to wear a. Hey, I could be remote.

Speaker 2: 1:20:42

Yeah, and it's the same for with PM roles that, like I mentioned with now with TPM roles. So I do want to I think I don't think I was clear about with a PM and a TPM that you know you can be a project manager in any industry, so construction, healthcare, all of those things, and you know just going to go get a PMP or anything like that is not going to make you marketable.

Speaker 1: 1:21:12

Do you have a PMP?

Speaker 2: 1:21:12

I do.

Speaker 1: 1:21:13

I do Okay, and don't they check like that. Your PMP is valid and real.

Speaker 2: 1:21:17

It depends on the, not the job.

Speaker 1: 1:21:19

I'm talking about the actual institute.

Speaker 2: 1:21:20

Oh yeah, Absolutely. So you have an ID, there's an ID that comes with it. You have to renew every three years. I just renewed last month. So there you know, there's the ID that comes with it and you know people want to, to fake, to get a PMP and all those things.

Speaker 1: 1:21:38

So you saying a PMP plug cannot get, you cannot successfully show that you got PMP, because there's a person who's on TikTok and Twitter and they have a PMP plug that makes telling people make stuff in Canva. They're like a PMP in fake degrees and all that and rallying people up.

Speaker 2: 1:21:57

I mean you can just go to PMI and if they really wanted to verify, just like going to saying you went to a certain college, they can go call those institutions and figure that out. But even with that, okay, you went to this PMP plug and they gave you a PMP or PMP, okay, but what skills do you have? You know, because now, looking at these job postings, they're not just saying, hey, do you have project management experience. They say do you have knowledge about cloud computing? Do you know machine learning? They, there's certain technical knowledge that you have to have if you're going to be a TPM. And you know you have people that are like, hey, I've been a project manager and you know they'll say wherever they've been at. But even with that, if you're a project manager that's been in marketing or a project manager that's been in higher education, you have a better chance than someone that's not in the tech industry to transfer. But it's still. It's a competitive market that you're less likely to get. Someone that has the technical backing you know, that has experience, that understands each domain, that understands different devices, that understand you know that there's different capacities in IT that they know that isn't just as important being a TPM than it is just the PMP. So there's people that's going for these PMPs because they hear people hey, what's the easiest way to break into tech and be in a non-technical role, which is being a scrum master or being a PMP? And that's not going to save you in this market.

Speaker 1: 1:23:31

Yeah, and I've also seen a trend too of people like and I would say, what was this in 2022,? I had just finished interviewing at Microsoft for a role, but then another sub-recruiter reached out to me for actual technical program or project manager type of role or whatever, and I think it was around some type of security stuff. So you're right they would which. I had no experience doing it, but I think if I was interested, I probably could do it based off of Skill set. Skill set and things I do. It's like so many things. I've realized the skills that I've gained outside of work, that I've did with this, like marketing and reaching out hey, what I want to do. I've had to work with producers and editors on my LinkedIn course or deliverables, like all those different things.

Speaker 2: 1:24:17

I really built another skills that I could go market myself for, if I ever have to and now honestly for these companies, for TPMs, they would rather take an engineer becoming a PM than just some Joe Small trying to become a PM, because they understand that, engineer, you can teach the soft skills right, but those hard skills yeah, it takes time to learn that and I can know if you BS'ing me or not Right, yeah, like who you kidding?

Speaker 1: 1:24:45

I don't know how long something takes Exactly. Don't play me, just get it done and it'll be that.

Speaker 2: 1:24:52

Yeah, and that's where I think with people, with these non-technical versus technical roles, when I tell people that I'm a PM, it's like oh, you don't do anything, you don't know anything. And I'm like but I have an IT. I go through my background and they're like oh you actually? Because, just because I hate it when people say like, oh, I'm a PM, I'm a person in tech, and they say I work for this company, which the only thing that makes them technical is the company. And it's like no, you are in marketing, you are in HR, you are, You're in. And that's where people are getting. The misconstrued about a PM is that they don't realize that these are different industries. Just because you're a PM doesn't make you in tech. Being an IT PM makes you in tech.

Speaker 1: 1:25:42

I like that high-tech. I might have that for the intro, but I think that's one of the things right, we were talking about earlier how people messed up the game with going to get massaged, I'm going to get a latte and all this other stuff. The content that doesn't even really work anymore. I don't take talk. They are attracted to that lifestyle, so that's why they are thinking non-technical roles are so easy and I'm like, if these people are going to pay you $150,000, $160,000, you don't think they don't want you to work.

Speaker 2: 1:26:10

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:26:11

You don't find that suspicious. You don't find that suspicious, like that's what they think. They think that, okay, I'm going to get all this and I'm going to do two hours of work and that's it, and a lot of people have not earned that right to do that, and that's another thing. She talks about people that have, like knowledge-based jobs or task-based roles. That's just ludicrous, Like that's why. Like I know I sound like I'm saying that's why, that's why, but I'm just thinking through my head. You'll see LinkedIn and you'll see, of course, like you'll have roles that may be non-technical or they're getting laid off. There's a mix of both. There are a mix of good people getting laid off. Then there's a mix of people that just aren't performing. That's getting laid off. I've noticed that maybe a lot of the people who just got in pandemic got laid off Because, hey, a lot of them just aren't working on their skillset, they aren't doing the things you need to do. Like, go back to what Shatoria talked about, because it's one of the things I talked about in my LinkedIn learning course, because I learned this at Goldman Sachs, but I was already doing it at Optif, but I specifically learned it because I was in a new org and they were telling me how to finesse because how they based on that organization visibility. A lot of people don't know what you're working on or what projects you've helped before the company or how you helped them save money. So you need to get on that town hall or the all hands or that quarterly call and present.

Speaker 2: 1:27:35

Yeah, and that's that strategic component that I was speaking about earlier is that you have to know what your value is for the company. You can't just go in and say, oh, I'm pen testing, or oh, you're just doing the job, you're checking it off, but you don't even know how you have the value for that. And that's even for me, when it comes to me being a TPM. Yeah, I have my PMP, but that's not the only certifications that I'm going for, like right now I'm studying for the ADWS Cloud Computing, because I am getting deeper and deeper into having technical knowledge, because I can't stand out if I'm just a PM, that okay, I can manage projects.

Speaker 1: 1:28:17

Great, so can the homeless guy across the street do the same thing. Can you get on the call and access what's the best EC2 instance to use?

Speaker 2: 1:28:25

Yeah, exactly. And so, like those things that you know, building my technical knowledge puts me ahead of the game because, also, that can give me a chance to pivot, because you know the people that the delivery managers or the managers of different resource teams most of them are not technical people. You know, the higher you go up, the more the less technical you are. So, even in a managerial role, if I wanted to go be a manager for a data center, that's a non-technical role but that has the technical knowledge, and so to stand apart, you have to strategically know something. Hey, what are you good at? Like I mentioned at the beginning of this, you know my niche is buildouts, facility buildouts, data center buildouts. So when people come and look at my LinkedIn, they see infrastructure, they see buildouts, they see IT transformation, and those are huge components about companies. Companies are looking to save money transforming the hardware they're using. They're looking to save money going from on-prem devices to cloud, and you really have to know where you stand out. Automation yeah, exactly, and automation it's going to take jobs, it's going to take tech jobs, and I know everyone in tech thinks, hey, I'm secure because I'm on the backend, you know, giving AI the source code for it. But those jobs can go away like over and up, like. So you have to have constantly stay on trends, stay knowing what's going on. Don't get comfortable. It's really, that's really the advice to anybody. Don't get comfortable. And 2024 is really showing why you can't get comfortable in any role, why you can't get comfortable in any company. It's because things are changing and if you don't get with the times like you're going to get left behind.

Speaker 1: 1:30:08

Yeah, I think well, a lot of this. I still think there was a bunch of like over hiring that some of those companies did for sure.

Speaker 2: 1:30:14

But even like we spoke about with Scrum Masters, but like before the pandemic, how many Scrum Masters were you seeing?

Speaker 1: 1:30:23

Probably more.

Speaker 2: 1:30:24

And now, like I said, they're trying to, you know, get more agile. So, with agile even though with the agile methodology a Scrum Master is called out but they're like hey, I'm paying this product owner $200,000. You can do both roles. I'm paying this PM 150, you can do both roles. And with AI and, honestly, my network engineers, security engineers, you know how to work by yourself. You know how to handle a situation. Yeah. So if you do your part, do a little bit extra, you know, document as you continue to keep going, document your lessons learns, pass it over to the PM, we'll have that information. And so it's like those Scrum Masters those though, I seen somebody on YouTube, he talked about it that hyper specification, and that's what kind of what Scrum Masters are. It's this hyper specification in agile versus like the overall you know process of it that leaves people out. So it's like okay, are you good at cybersecurity? Are you good at one component in cybersecurity? Are you good at network? So it's like you have to have, you have to balance between having a general knowledge of something and being hyper specific. And I think these what the companies were doing, that was this hyper, you know, hyper specified roles. And they're looking in there like hold up, we don't need this. And I really feel like some of these companies took these PPLones and they try to pay the loans back.

Speaker 1: 1:31:54

Probably. I mean, that's a hot take. I got some other hot takes that I'll probably share on another episode, but do you got any other hot takes you wanna get off On your chest?

Speaker 2: 1:32:03

Any other hot takes. Really, I think the biggest thing is just like if you're coming to anyone saying breaking the tech and you wanna be a PM, please.

Speaker 1: 1:32:14

So this is what. Let me rephrase this this will probably be the last question Well, not last question, but last question really for you. If someone wants to be a technical program manager, what should they do in your opinion?

Speaker 2: 1:32:29

I think, for in my opinion, there's two things Definitely, lee, if you're transferring from any other role that's outside of tech, really understand what your transferable skills are. That's the basis of being a PM is understanding. What are those things, those leadership qualities about you, your strategic qualities about you? Really understanding do you know how to lead people without managing them? Because being a PM, based on how your company's matrix is whether your company, your resources, are under you as a leader on a project or are they working for other teams, and usually they're working for other teams. So how do you influence those people that are working for other teams, because they have other things that they're working on? How do you get them to do the work for you? So, really understanding what transferable skills, but, on the technical side, really understand where you want to work at. Like, what things do you want to work out the trends that are going on right now data warehousing, ai and machine learning, cloud computing. Find one of those and it can be any interest point Because, like I just mentioned, those are trends and they're highly sought after in these different companies. Go and find out. Hey, what are these? Are there any boot camps? I know people hate boot camps but it helps to give you the knowledge as a PM. So, like is there any boot camps? Are there any certifications that on a technical side that you can learn? You know looking at, like solution architects, those certifications that they have really going and finding a domain that works for you and that you really want to get in and set in that domain and drill in, learn a lot about that and focus on that and getting the job in that, because if you spread yourself to a thing, you're just not going to find anything. So really just zero in and finding hey, I like cybersecurity, let me go find a boot camp that fits that and then work on that, while you're also finding and improving your transferable skills. Going and seeking out if there are any projects in the community that you can work in, like you mentioned, that you know doing this podcast and doing other things with your business. You learned a lot of transferable skills and it's the same thing in your community. Are you part of a church? Are you part of a sorority or fraternity? Are you part of any of these organizations that a project needs to be managed and manage a project? Find something that you can manage a project, because there are. You know there's a way to manage a project everywhere. So really learn that. But really, from a technical aspect, find a domain that you really want to learn about and really drill in and understanding that. And another aspect I would say is go to these job postings and look at the skills that they're looking for. If it's telling you exactly, they're giving you the cheat code of what they're looking for in jobs and really go down there and look at what the skills that they're looking for outside of just PMRoll Cause people look at PMRolls and they're like, okay, I have the project management experience, okay, but what about the other things that they're telling you that you're going to do on the job? What are you focusing on that? What are you focusing on that? And I feel like people, that strategic goal will help them get a lot further.

Speaker 1: 1:35:36

Great, great. And then this is the last actually question. Is there any question that I didn't ask you, that you?

Speaker 2: 1:35:44

wish. I asked you. No, I think we covered it all. I don't, mm.

Speaker 1: 1:35:54

I'm gonna ask a funny one, though. So I presume that you are a single. All right, fellas, if y'all in the area, cause I get a lot of people in Dallas that watch this, and my last guest then found him a little boot from off the show. So, hey look, she says she's single. Y'all come correct. How do they keep in? How do they follow you online?

Speaker 2: 1:36:12

You can find me on LinkedIn, terri TERRI Evans EVANS, so just find me on LinkedIn. I am. I guess my DMs are open on LinkedIn.

Speaker 1: 1:36:21

Listen. Just connect with her, send her her notes they have seen on the podcast and we'll go from there. But I appreciate y'all for tapping in with us. Y'all know what to do Subscribe to the Patreon she mentioned boot camps, Check out Level Up in Tech. If you wanna get into the cloud, you know the link will be in the description, as always, and, like you can donate whatever you wanna do. But I appreciate y'all and until next time let's stay textual and we out Peace. Alec Al leavin'.